Episode #14 – Kat Zander: Building a business on a foundation of resilience, authenticity, empathy & hope

welcome to the society pod a podcast for entrepreneurs marketers and leaders here’s your host Jessica yarmy hey everybody and welcome to the society pod I hesitate to even try to introduce my guest today because he is a jack of all creative trades we met through photography on Instagram I’m going to say I slid into his DMS because of photography on Instagram and we’ll elaborate on that maybe and here we are today still connected through brand building through shared values through just Love of All Things positive and and living with gratitude and and giving things away in a world that seems to really be filled with people who like to take so welcome to the show Damen Noble Andrews thank you thank you for having me yeah I think the first time we actually spoke on the phone I was changing the diaper of my old oldest kid that’s that’s years ago or nine years ago at this point it went fast it went fast yeah yeah the way it went down was not me being creepy with Damian I reached out to him because I needed a photographer and I’m connected to a lot of athletes and fitness people online and and I just consistently saw his name popping up and so I I reached out to him on Instagram and was like I need to we need to work together so yeah it’s crazy that that was that was years ago now I gave a very poor introduction of you and your background and your bio how do you introduce yourself I think that you did as well as can be done to be honest I am a jack of all trades I I will tell you this what I’ve recently realized maybe not even that recently but what I’m recently getting comfortable owning is that the most apropo title that I hold is perspective shifter that’s kind of what I do um I’ve done it with a camera I’ve done it with Consulting I’ve done it with brand architecture I’ve done it with creative Direction I’ve done it with life coaching I’ve done it with coming in and talking to a sea Suite in a boardroom and ruffling a lot of feathers so yeah the truth is I have done a lot of different things I’ve worn a lot of hats in the creative realm for about a quarter Century now years is like is April actually what’s the date the th April th is my official years in business as a creative and wow how come you know the date so specifically like what was that date years ago I was in college and I was it was the first time somebody paid me to go shoot an assignment and it was it was like the beginning of oh I can not only do I love doing this but I can make money with it and uh and so yeah I just you know I’ve also got a ridiculous memory like I remember everything so I will have to write that down because I have a terrible memory when it comes to names and dates so I will add it to my calendar my my hard copy planner I will put Damian’s year career anniversary you know it’s funny I thought about having like a like doing something special and I realized like how random would it be just to start posting again I haven’t really posted in like years it’s probably been three years since I’ve posted anything online um I haven’t updated my website and since the beginning of covid like you know April of it’d be very random just to like start I should you know there’s a lot of shs in this business that’s for sure yeah you know but plumber with leaky pipes well it’s it’s something that I’m passionate about because I’m one of those people who never feels like I have a finished product I always feel like things are work in progress and I always have that hesitation of sharing anything I always have this cringe moment and this comparison moment of what are other people doing versus how is this going to show up but I think it’s just so important to to share along the way and to share the highs and lows and and to bring that authenticity to the table of the highs and lows and to to lead with vulnerability and just show somebody who’s years behind you that hey here’s how it goes and I have more years in the game and I’m still making mistakes I’m still messing up I’m still not able to connect my printer to the Wi-Fi today you know there’s still just stuff that happens where you’re just like why can’t I do this so I think you should start to post again I would love to see that actually you probably have so much content in the can that you’ve never put out there publicly I’ve I’ve mentored a lot of young creatives along the path along the way and one of the things that was always hysteric IAL is when they would look at a finished shoot with me after we get done right we come home we download it my process is one where I’ve always downloaded the images and felt terrible instantly like just I hate everything that I’m looking at and it used to ruin me for like days and then I like a week later I’d finally go back and start editing pictures and and it was okay and then I realized like oh I’m just going to be hypercritical that’s my nature that’s the school that I went to was hyper critical very direct very much hey this is just the reality take it on the chin deal with it and move on and so I’m hypercritical of my own work part of the reason why I don’t share as much is because I always love the thing that’s in my head that I’ve yet to create more than I love what I’ve created already so there’s a piece of that that’s there too yeah and yeah I I would sit down with my assistants or my mentees you know whatever role they were in at that time and we’d start looking through pictures and you know let’s just say there’s a thousand pictures from a day of shooting on a commercial shoot get used maybe maybe six get used maybe if you’re building a library like to get used and so we’re looking at just the tiniest little differences in images and I had an assistant once say the amount of fantastic pictures that’ll never see the light of the day is is like mind-blowing and it really is I have terabytes full of images that will never see the light of day that could be beautiful and wonderful and and used for something except they don’t actually have a purpose other than hey that’s cool to look at at you know and so it’s it’s really there is a ton of content also I don’t really like walking backwards I really want to go back in time and and reshow stuff that isn’t what my heart is into right now so it’s tricky I’m in that self-editing phase right now even with this podcast because what I’m finding is I really enjoy recording the conversations because especially with the people that I’m talking to I know the people and I’m it’s like catching up with old friends and then when I go to edit it I am in complete um disarray I’m in that self-critical place I am why am I even doing this and so what I need to I need to divide the project in half I need to just record it and then give it to someone to do so it so I don’t even have to listen to myself and I don’t even have to hit that self-critical place because I’m right there with you I never thought of it as living in the past but I think of it as oh my gosh I’m so cringey and shouldn’t be doing this okay I’m going to speak to this for a second because I think it’s essential I think it’s an essential piece of the puzzle too often these days I think that we we look for the easy way out we showcase the hero moments and the Fantastic versions and the best way to learn is to look yourself in the mirror the best way you can listen the best way you can learn how you sound to others is to force yourself to listen back to your conversation in real time n and a half or two times spe and hear how you speak and how you pause and where the ums are and all of those things because it makes a difference I’ve been on a journey to I don’t know heal myself make myself better clear a lot of crap out of the past the closet all those things for a while now what I found is if there’s any uncomfortable thing feeling like I run right at it at this point I want to know I want to know faster I want to dive in now and I want to put it behind me so I can get back to some ease I’m I’m happy with ease I like that at this point in my life I think I’m taking an opposite approach I’m definitely I’m definitely band-aiding around the things that are uncomfort full ostrich just like head in the sand I don’t want to yes I I have been editing out the likes and the ums and that’s part of this exercise also is just to speak more and to make my thoughts come together in my head real time faster better without the ums without the likes and every time I edit I just think to myself you are years into your career why with the ums why with the likes I have spoken on stage I have done the things why are they still there so I we’ll have to come back to any sort of progress I I make in this regard and and maybe we’ll do an episode a year from now and we’ll see where we’re at with with your process of of running straight at your uncomfortableness and then my process of just avoiding it head in the sand um we’ll see where we’re at I love it I love it and I think it’s a whole podcast in itself right is is the uncomfortable moments and what to pay attention to and where to where to go or what to say hey not right now because there’s some of that too for sure you know we can’t handle everything all at once you you know I want to I want to organ I’m looking at my desk right I want to organize my desk right now like oh there’s mess I want tend to not the time like all right you got you can’t you have to be able to filter your Neurosis a little bit at least yeah we’re gonna we’re gonna come back to your your personal development hacks because I love that you’re always working on things and you’re always in your own brain and trying to improve but I want to dig into some of your creativity hacks a little bit more because I do think you are one of those people who has a super power and I want to try to unpack it for the world so how would you describe your superpower I don’t know but at first I just wanted to take like a a Superman stance for a second just because it felt good to hear somebody else say I have a superpower I’m exceptional with people that’s my superpower is I listen what I say I listen between the lines people will say something and they might be communicating a piece of what they’re trying to get at there’s always another layer deeper and I’ve learned to listen to what that is and I’ve learned to understand what that is and then I reverse engineer it and learn to speak to it from the brand side or the creative side and so my superpower is deep empathy my superpower is an innate and cultivated skill at listening to human beings and understanding the different roles in life that they might be in whether it be super affluent sitting on their yacht and what they want to be exposed to what they want to be served to being homeless and sleeping in their car or not knowing where their next meal is going to come from and I’ve been both and I think that you have to in a creative realm you have to tap into what your truth is my truth is understanding people that will always be what I lead with I really thought you were going to come back to the the perspective idea as your superpower and I really thought you were going to go with something visual because you have this ability to see things differently and and have the the sight inputs so now when you say your your superpower is listening and hearing and then I know you also have a visual superpower you have some some layers of uh of powers going on like my wife says it’s an onion baby you got to work your way in right layer by layer layer by layer I think that visual artists are always looking to connect in the briefest amount of time possible with a still image that’s what you’re doing you’re taking a fraction of a second and trying to tell a complete story within it in a painting you’re trying to express an emotion or make somebody feel something by just a static two-dimensional maybe slightly three-dimensional existence to be able to do that well you have to first understand your why and to understand your why you have to understand yourself or the client’s perspective or the version of truth that needs to be communicated the rest is is just decision- making and and yes I have a long history of understanding lighting I have a deep deep deep toolbox to take a picture with direct a film with all those things I understand camera angles and and lenses and all the technicalities all the science behind it which is just craft I have that as a tool but that’s a that’s something that can be learned my superpower that’s innate to me is is on The Human Side it’s not about the visual as much as it is about the why what what we want somebody to feel and if we’re clear about what we want somebody to feel then we can then we can make the choices that lead to that result visually as Al so that’s that’s always how I’ve been informed when when you see me solve a problem quickly with a camera or on set or or in a thought process my first step is what does this person need to feel and then I reverse engineer from there are there hacks that you have learned with your brain to either when you know you need to be in creative mode when you know you need to collect the inputs creatively you need to be in that listening State and then you also need to be able to come up with ideas or come up with visuals or something like are there things that you do routinely that up your creativity I think that connection to creativity is is more felt than thought and so if I find myself thinking a lot about something I have to find some way to break that cycle I love to do woodworking I I love to just make a a lamp a a cutting board it made my dining room table I I’d like I don’t even care if I’m making something that has a purpose it’s just touching something organic and manipulating it sanding it shaping it takes me out of thinking and more times than not all creativity needs is space we try and bottle it up and compress it and go okay be creative now and you can and you can do it easier if you’re already in your body you can do it easier if you’re paying less attention to what the brain is thinking and more attention to what the body is feeling this is me personally is my Approach and I think that again when I start with what’s the end result that I want the the target to feel the rest is just decisions and craft to get there and so for me it’s the more I stay connected to this kind of pit within my stomach that speaks from there rather than getting into my head my my wife does this this like up and down layered you know hand signal to me if I’m ever in my head because I overthink stuff my brain’s a weird trap so I just stay out of it just as much as possible when I was younger my hack like no joke was smoke a joint and drink a Red Bull and like fully destroy my body but take myself out of all reality and then I’d find it I don’t need to do that anymore luckily I’m healthier than that now and I I truly believe that for a creative to find their process you have to put judgment aside we have to say there’s no right or wrong way there’s no good or bad version there’s maybe a way to be less self-destructive in the process and I mean Hunter S Thompson like he lived a life you know he got after it there’s there’s a version of Truth for everybody and the access point to to their their piece of it I think we just have to accept and and judge a little bit whatever that is I I think yeah for for me it’s it’s just trying to stay in my body as much as possible so I go for a run I’ll do a workout I will um woodworking really helps I’ll go on a hike I’ll play with my kids anything just to like break the thought process and just get back into it and usually that’s when you know those those genius quote unquote moments come so I know you you have your kid with you right now as they’re removing a lot of creative Pursuits from schools how do you as a parent think about instilling creativity in your kids or allowing them to have creative moments yeah that’s that’s a great question I think that my wife and I spend a lot of time trying to figure that part out we have like designated art time we have like art things we do together where one person will start a painting or a drawing and the next person will add to it we pass it around to release the attachment to it I think that helps too we kind of approach every creatively we approach I don’t know as as much as we can from a creative process my kids collect sticks and rocks and all the things in nature and we go okay what are we going to do with this we were inspired by it that’s great what’s next and whether or not there actually is a next or not at their age is less important than just the consideration that there could be you know and that to me is kind of where we’re starting my kids also go to a Waldorf School so there’s a little bit more creativity like in their curriculum you know Saving Grace there even though I prefer that they were homeschooled but now we’re getting off into tangents and you know you know me I’ll go for days I don’t know if I would trust you with homeschooling any children but um but they would turn out to be Geniuses from an artistic perspective for sure um you know would they thank you thank you very much would there be Red Bull cans everywhere maybe but um not just just uh just your bam mate highly caffeinated but better for you you know I think about this in terms of like what are the habits I’m passing down to to my son and as you’re talking about like getting out of your head and just kind of being being where you are and as much as I haven’t intentionally passed on anxiety or like performance anxiety to him he he has it so whether it’s DNA and it’s passed through he has this awareness of like how is he performing in any given moment and I really try to have balancing times with him where we talk about let’s just go outside sit in the grass let’s just be present let’s just breathe and that’s big for him I don’t even call it meditation I just say like sit outside because he’s in fortnite land most of the time but he also just has anxiety around school tests and things like that and I’m like listen like at the end of the day it’s it’s school’s more about how you learn and it’s about like learning your brain and that’s the most important thing but it’s really hard to get him out of that like must get an A must do well on whatever state test they’re doing to prove whatever about their school quality I mean it’s just it’s it’s just a sad time for Creative spirits in the world because all measurement is attached to things that aren’t creative and and so then kids are evaluated based on based on things that are not creative Pursuits it’s going to be hard not to get on a soap box for this one for me I I’ll be honest um I take a three minute soap boox we’re here for it I have a gripe with standardized school system in America I I do it didn’t work for me it didn’t work for my brain it didn’t I was bored by it the system was put in place to teach people how to be good Factory workers how to learn information and access that and complete a task associated with it and not challenge it ask questions and I love question I love being more engaged in thought and knowledge and all those things and so my grades were terrible and I realized very early on that the system was not right for me now my wife on the other hand worked wonderfully in the system she got great grades she went to Cal she graduated Cal with high honors she is an extremely intelligent person and then met me and went what like this doesn’t compute it doesn’t make sense so our kids have this balance of somebody who deeply understands the achieving aspect of of what is asked of the kids and somebody who thinks all of it is a bunch of BS and our children would be much better off if they got to go play by themselves and create and do random things and then slowly learn the knowledge associated with what they were trying to complete so that’s part one without me getting too aggressive about it the second part of that is that you know we we really Champion effort in our house we don’t really talk about the outcome we we mention it we address it absolutely and the the biggest aspect of things that we focus on is the effort did you do your best did you try did you get tired doing it did you exhaust all the resources that you had you know that type of conversation to us is way more important for our kids to be reminded of because the world’s going to ask them a bunch of success story questions as they grow up so there’s that and then I think the last piece of it is simply for the creatives in the world right now it’s also a very wonderful time to be creative you know kids can create an AI they can take a concept that they paint and then they put that into a thing and evolve it in a way that we could never do two years ago three years ago if we Embrace where things are going and we allow our children to interact with it there’s a lot of space for Creative expression at this point maybe not in the schools as much as it should be and it’s just part of life you know what I mean like you got to find your way and find your spot and and really go for it yeah I I think the schools are going to be so slow on the technology front and and in a mode of outlawing chat GPT instead of hey listen it’s out there let’s learn how to use it as a tool just like we learned how to use Google as a tool it is a tool for Content creation let’s let’s learn how it should be implemented into schools now I think kids who Embrace those tools whether through school or outside of school they just have such a leg up on everyone because they’re so techsavvy and and you can create at such scale you can you can get such fast learnings just by doing and building this and building this and you’re talking about a thousand photos in one photo shoot they’re just able to crank out like learn learn learn learn you get so many reps when you’re when you’re able to use digital tools I think you’re very right and the the Reps is something that’s so crucial as I keep messing with my setup here because I can’t stop looking at the framing and critiquing it I want to flip my camera over you need more you need more podcast reps so I do need more podcast rep true okay I’m gonna I’m going to throw this out into the world okay Damen and I were talking about doing a podcast where we pick a brand and we optimize the brand let’s just we’ll just say optimize optimize wait wait you know what’s fun is I flip my camera over am I upside down for you now it doesn’t flip you’re upside down for me I kind of want to stay this way but I feel like that would disturb people so I’m going to go back so I know so we’ve already talked a little bit about photography and I think we could talk talk photography like for a whole podcast but let’s like kind of dive into Brands and branding as you are tagged into either building a brand or evaluating a brand do you have a specific process that you follow and how much woodworking is involved in that process I do have a specific process I follow it’s a a loose framework that answers a series of questions that I think are important to answer um and what I’m always looking to to do is uh is Define what I call the North starer Brand it’s essentially its purpose right where is this thing going to go and not waiver from what’s it going to track towards what’s it going to follow to get there you have to understand why it exists you know what was the impetus of it why you know is it solving a problem is it just want to be cool there’s lots of different reasons just want to make money doesn’t really matter the why except that the why is crucial to inform how to move forward so in in figuring out the why we then get to ask who it’s for right and in the who it’s for what I’m looking to do is is kind of determine the Bold statement of the brand why this thing why why does why is this one cup the best cup maybe it’s not trying to be the best cup maybe it’s just trying to be the most affordable cup okay well then that’s the reason why whatever the Bold statement is we’re always looking for I’m always looking for a brand to to take a stance to have some guts to not try and be for everybody and so what we’re doing is we’re we’re looking for the purpose of it we’re looking for what it’s always going to say and do at least a direction is going to point and then we start massaging the subtlety of what box does it fit into you know there’s I use the car reference all the time with my clients because it’s the easiest quickest way for people to grasp it even if you think you haven’t been advertised to you by car companies you absolutely have and it’s the quickest way to see that a Toyota markets itself very differently than a Ferrari does a Jeep is its own box and so is a Bentley and who you’re speaking to and why you’re speaking to them comes with a box to put your brand in comes with a a construct now you can always break those rules absolutely however you have to understand that for a long time now Americans have been marketed to and sold to in a particular way so if you switch it up on them two things can happen one you can really make an impact and jar people and it can be fantastic and two they’re going to be confused and anything confusing in branding advertising marketing is just a loss unless it’s done on purpose to get you to ask a question follow up and then there’s you know then you’re playing a different game the brands that love to play the game where we can seed plant and and toy with the audience and get them curious and engaged like those are super fun they’re just not as common because most brands are trying to make a quick execution and reap a benefit from it whether it be you know sales or followers or whatever it might be so yeah that’s going and I think there’s the hesitation to to take that risk or to take that stand to use your language because of cancel culture because of you know we’re trying to stay broad with our target audience um and you you don’t want to alienate people you don’t want to to be so bold that it’s it’s out of somebody’s taste um but I totally agree that especially with so many Brands out there like basically every single space has so much fragmentation now with digital being like a primary method that everyone’s using to advertise and to put their brands out there you do have to do something you have to stand for something or you stand for nothing I always say that I want and this is well I get a little crass I’m a little rough on the edges sometimes I want [ __ ] yeses and [ __ ] Nos and if you’re a maybe I I push you towards the nose I don’t want your business if you’re a maybe because what happens is you get really clear about who’s going to be in your corner who’s going to follow you who’s going to like die for your brand and on the other side if you push people away all they’re going to do is talk about it I can’t believe they said no to me I you know just because I don’t believe in X Y and Z thanks for the free advertising you just told five friends of those five one of them is my people and they come running towards me or you’re maybe and I say hey you’re not right for us and you go to Crazy efforts to prove how right you are for us and you buy up all the things and you’re a a super supporter our culture is been taught to be divisive right it’s Coke and Pepsi it’s my team your team it’s us and them it’s Democrat Republican it’s all these all these very divisive things so if you play that game of divisiveness it actually speaks to a normaly within a consumer’s brain oh I’m I’m either this or I’m that great so step one there step two is you know a a very wide net has a very wide weave meaning you’re missing the specific people you’re going for you might catch a bunch of fish but are they going to keep coming back you know I guess don’t come back you’re going to catch a lot of consumers but yeah are they going to keep coming back you know one I don’t want one sales I want people that love a brand I want people that want more from a brand I want to keep engag I’m interested in working primarily with brands that that want the culture that want a following that want a family A Tribe whatever you know verbage you want to put on it what we’re really looking for is the DI hards for our business because we are not afraid to say this is what we do excellently and if you stay to that and don’t try and go oh we also do these other seven things poorly you know chances are you’re going to win yeah and get to those di hard that dieh hard core audience as quickly as possible I like the analogy of you know the net because you want to catch the core first you don’t want to start so Broad and then try to back into who are we who are we talking to here give me a ladle to start give me just like I just want to that these people are going to always be there it’s like making the stock of a soup you got to have a really strong base before you start diluting it before you start adding all these other things you know and then people will learn to love it as it grows but you got to start with something pure is there a brand that you are watching right now that you think is doing a great job at that yeah I love that you ask this question because it’s such a great question to ask and I hate this question because no I don’t watch brands that’s like a Hal truth I pay attention to what brands are doing I see advertising that is really resonating and striking I see moments in culture that stand out I am also you know I’m Gen X I I am a little disgruntled with where things are in some capacity I don’t like the clickbaity culture I don’t like how much you know skin is populated on our social media just to grab attention it bothers me and you look at a you look at a a movie that has no problem putting John Cena on stage fully nude covering himself with an envelope which by the way was one of the better moments of the show because it was hysterical and he played it wonderfully but then also like ignores the potency and power of Barbie and what the true message was and like nominates the guy of Barbie for an Oscar for the song like what a slap in the face what the movie really stood for and so I get I get fired up about brands that do good and I get fired up about brands that are like communicating Clarity so like the three things I always measure a brand by is is CL CL ity cohesiveness and consistency if they’re constantly clear on a regular basis and everywhere you look it reinforces that message that brand is going to win their audience where it gets diluted is you know they go oh well this platform needs a slightly different thing which they all do but then they change verbiage too much and it doesn’t feel the same or they don’t take a certain aspect of it seriously or they go oh yeah just throw something together I we got a social team they’re just going to do some stuff no no no no terrible terrible be consistent be cohesive everywhere and just again that bold message with Clarity you’re going to win your audience you started to kind of go to this topic so I’m just going to go there you posted or reposted on Facebook the other day something that I thought was so interesting and I’m just going to read it because I I want to dive into it a little bit with you and it’s things that we’ve talked about before but I think it like probably needs to be talked about more this Facebook post men need to sit with men that have healed perspectives of women women need to surround themselves with women who have a healed perspective of men conversations are different the energy is different what do you want to know I want your three minute soapbox on this topic I think that for a very long time men and women have been told how they’re supposed to be in our culture and we have become some very confused version of masculine and feminine energy where we look at it again as as a divided thing we look at at you know the opposition the the Gap and pay so we look at maternity leave paternity leave we we look at what it’s like in in for a woman in the workforce to even get pregnant what that means for her career we look at the s gender roles of the guy’s going to go you know to work and drink at work and come home and his wife better be perfectly dressed and the table perfectly set with his favorite meal and it’s just all such [ __ ] the truth is that there’s masculine and feminine energy within all of us every single human has both and when we start looking at the beautiful balance of those two together both within ourselves and in community I stop looking at a a woman that I’m sitting with as having a problem or being wrong and I start seeing her superpowers and why she’s right and why that’s a beautiful addition and vice versa you know traditionally masculine energy is the container for feminine energy to to be wild and free and spontaneous within but without both you have an empty bowl and you have sporadic neither of those things function as well as as when they’re put together so I think you know take that and add it to our current culture of boys becoming men who are told not to approach a woman that they’re interested in but they also are supposed to tell them that they’re interested but in a way that’s respectful but only if they’re over and make $a year which is less than % of men in America it’s confusing for for young men out there and women are torn between being a strong independent woman boss [ __ ] label that we put on people and like when do they allow themselves to be soft when do men allow themselves to be soft when do men allow themselves to to be strong and powerful and and when can a woman hear when the man is tired of doing that a healed perspective for men and women is really just a way of saying like you’re looking at a human being across from you instead of a label and I think that the more we do that across the board in life the better the world gets we are recording this in early April and we’re coming off of women’s history month and and I feel a lot of obligation to speak as a woman in business and to represent women in business where I kind of planted my flag for for this month and I I’m always evolving on this topic but I kind of summed it up as like I want integration as opposed to isolation I think there’s a lot of powerful female focused groups right now which is amazing that women are coming together and supporting each other and trying to push topics forward however we will all make better and faster progress if we come together and have these conversations from both sides from both perspectives and especially as a woman in business as I think about my career let’s say % of it I’m reporting to Men I’m mentored by men I’m pulled through the system by men I’m taught the game by men and and so how can I on women’s History Month turn my back on those men who have done great things for me in my career and say oh no like this is all about like the women and so it’s something that I debate about a lot I never want to just sit at a woman’s table I want to sit at a at a table that’s full of leaders I want to sit at a table full of people who are healed or are healing or are exploring these topics and have conversations together like I want to help address the lack of funding for female Founders % of funding goes to female Founders and that’s not enough but I don’t think the solution to that is to have a woman’s table and have dollars from that woman’s table going to women-owned businesses I think it has to be integrated together we have to collectively work through what is the evolution of the patriarchical system that we’re all living in I mean look well said I agree with you I I think that why why on Earth in any like let’s just focus on business for a second okay why in any business setting would you want to limit potential impossibility like that’s all that ex excluding any demographic any group that’s what that yields I want to know more I want to know from I want to be informed by everybody everybody every gender every non-gender I want to be informed by every race I want to be informed by every age I want to be informed by Humanity because everybody’s got something to add to whatever you’re creating so to isolate I think it it is it it dilutes the potential you’re you’re talking about like the importance of mixing it up not just having you know women’s side men’s side race side whatever and we lived in a patriarchal society for so long where there was a lot of Oppression to a number of different minority groups I’m a white man in America I’m the default which is ridiculous it’s ridiculous that just because I was born a man and just because I happen to be happen to look more white than anything else even though I have a ton of Middle Eastern background from Syria I’m the default in this country you don’t say the white guy who did a thing you’ll say oh the woman or the black man or the you know Latino or what we label everybody but the white man we need to shift that we need to have that pendulum swing and pendulum swings come with overcorrection they do the ones who are ahead of the game and stay ahead of the game are the ones that go hey we need to balance this and find The Sweet Spot that works for us so there are certain groups that I think should be just women-owned and women funded and and mainly their clientele is for women and I also think that the majority of business majority of Life needs to be mixed up I was lucky enough to grow up in a Melting Pot where I was one of six white kids to graduate in a graduating class of five I loved that I loved that I was didn’t understand didn’t understand that like diversity was something you needed to include because I was just the minority growing up and then I moved to Illinois for a little bit and was like I freaked out it was the most white people I’d seen in one place at one point in time like I walked in the cafeteria I was just like what is going on we need to correct we do that that you can’t argue that we’ve gone too far we need to also be aware of the balance and what we’re missing by not including some of those voices and I think that that’s where we’re right at that line of maybe going a little bit too far and look I’m I’m a white guy in America who can’t get certain jobs because I don’t meet a diversity quotient that sucks and I’m okay with it like it is what it is right like it it sucks that any person should be excluded because of their age gender or race period sexual orientation all things that we judge people for which is in my opinion just ridiculous I think the overcorrection is necessary I think that being aware of when to include those voices and when to say hey I couldn’t be here without is is essential I would never be in the position I’m in without very strong intelligent powerful women in my in my corner absolutely no question about it yeah I think as a woman who’s in business and knowing that were s was the first time women could have their own bank accounts like something like that like we’re still so early in all of this is that is that is that the fact like that when it could be feel like it was but not by much probably right like it it wasn’t that long ago and so to kind of circle back to like the need to put things out there and the need to share the journey I feel that’s the only part that gets me over the hump of my self-critical nature is I just need to show what this looks like as a woman building businesses on my own you know I don’t have like a spouse that I’m leaning on to do this like this is me building things and here’s what I’m learning and then leave it better for the next Generation I don’t think it’s going to be solved necessarily in our generation but it’s like can we make progress and and pass it along a little bit better than it was handed to us that’s like that’s it’s like the people who plant trees today knowing they’ll never sit in the shade right like it’s it’s important it’s important I believe to make the world a better place than then we left it to participate in progress It’s inevitable it’s just a matter of of how long it takes and I and I think that I think it’s great that you are doing what you’re doing I think it’s great that you have women run businesses and own businesses and all those things and you know I am happy to say that I help participate in in in helping support that so it’s both for sure and you’re one of the first five men I’ve had on the podcast so you know you will you’ll go down in history really um I was feeling historic so thank you for pointing that out you you are special you white man Damian are special perfect um we talked all the labels great I just wanted to make sure if Society hasn’t told you enough that you’re special um you are special Society definitely does not tell men enough that they’re special that’s for sure I know I know appr um so I I felt like you needed that reminder um thank I know you spend a lot of time on your own personal development personal growth what are the things that are top of your mind right now like what are you working on oh man like this is a this is its own podcast in itself this is maybe maybe I’m discovering that the reason people have midlife crisis is because they become very aware of the fact that they don’t know who they are because we’re just old enough to recognize that most of what we’ve done in life is because of somebody else’s narrative that we just followed until this point where we start questioning everything and recognizing that I don’t want to be the version of human that my mom defined because she had issues with men and never healed those and I don’t want to be the version of myself because my grandfather was first generation American and grew up in a very strict household with not as food around so our eating habits are now defined by like we have to clear our plate because my grandfather grew up in the depression and learned to protect his food we start questioning all these things and where’s it come from I think we have to question all of who we are and in this midlife stage we start recognizing that let me be clearer than that I didn’t fully recognize it on my own my wife had to reflect it back to me and be like de you’re not doing this well like this this sucks to to live with this sucks to face and I could argue it and fight it which is what I would have done most of my life or I can look at it and go oh those are pie I don’t want my family to feel that way I I don’t want to be received that way so this line between holding on to our identity my personality as this I’m a that whatever versus how I want to be received creates this very interesting rift this very interesting divide of I don’t actually know how to act in certain situations because my default is something that I don’t want to perpetuate but I don’t have the tools to figure out how I want to step forward so it’s this almost daily dance of pausing and and checking yourself and saying hey stop there for a second respond don’t react and be clear about the information you want your kids to hear and how you want to do it like I was I’m still thinking about the fact that I was just short with my son like I was direct and I was clear and I don’t want I want to be kinder than I just was and I’m frustrated because I I have an important thing that I’m doing right now and it’s being interrupted does it matter like re really do I want my kid thinking oh they you have to be on eggshells because Dad’s doing an important thing or should he just be able to live a little like you know these are the things that I am constantly challenging and constantly checking myself on and it leads to a crazy amount of Confusion And so when you talk about like I have a superpower or like where’s my area of Genius or like you know I’m special for whatever it actually does help because it reminds me that there’s pieces of me that I still love and that don’t need to be changed that I’m comfortable with not needing to be changed and then there’s other aspects that are just like man I’ve got shovel in hand I’m digging daily daily for it yeah yeah well and one of the things to love is just that in that conversation with yourself and so many people aren’t or aren’t exploring it or are just truly doing the ostrich like head in the sand kind of move and just give you flowers for not just like vulnerable but you’ve always been somebody who’s who’s dug and tried to get better and and shared and learned and evolved and I’ve just enjoyed that about our interactions over the years one of the things that we talk about pretty consistently on this podcast this podcast of seven episodes um so when you say consistently like you know still new um is is comeback season so tell me about a time when you might have been on a low and and when was it what were you doing and what were some of the things that you did to get yourself out of that space it’s a very interesting question to answer right now because I honestly feel like I’m on low right now I moved my family to the middle of no so that we could heal so that I could heal so I could spend the time doing this work of self improvement and and progression and and defining who we are and become a better father and a better husband and all those things and I’ve let a lot of work go because I wanted to be here and home and so now I’m at the place where I have to start generating more income again I have to start working more again and I’m coming into this recognizing that I’ve always been Word of Mouth I’ve always been hey work with Damien because he’s great at XYZ or hey somebody told me I should call you I have no idea why we’re on the phone but let’s figure it out and I’m just not around that many people anymore and I’m stepping back into a world in a realm where I’ve been doing this for a long time and I’ve not been good about you talk about the archive like I’ve not been good about capturing the final so I could have it so I could show oh here it is with all the graphics on it here’s the full thing you know here’s the package it’s a it was a mistake I made a mistake in not doing that and so I’m trying to recreate a portfolio that is more idea based than visual based because I don’t have those things documented over the past years the past years of doing creative Direction it’s tough to to start here knowing that I can go help you know somebody sell widgets and make a decent living doing it I just don’t really have an interest in that I I want to work on projects that make the world a better place I want to work with people who are who are changing things for the better I want to work on you know i’ I’ve thought about starting a nonprofit just to help other nonprofits get their message out there cuz that’s the piece I do really well so the low now what am I doing to get out of it is I’m recognizing I can only do one day at a time and only deal with one coughing kid at a time I can only deal with a certain amount of laundry every day I can only deal with a certain amount of screen time every day I want to still have dinners with my family and I don’t want to tuck away in you know in an office and disappear I’m recognizing that that the right thing will happen when it needs to happen and I’m also working towards making that happen as much as possible and I think we we I have to remind myself that like the measurement is effort just like with my kids the measurement is effort am I putting in the effort yes great am I spending too much time on social media then not so great you know so as long as I’m putting in the effort then it’s just one single step at a time and I’m also starting a a company that’s focused on like being a champion for the struggles in life because I think we’ve talked about all the you know fake version of here’s my highlight real too much and now it’s time to just say like let that pendulum swing a little bit you know it’s it’s a little over the line it’s a little in your face struggling on purpose because it needs to shake things up a little bit and and I think that that also feels like a healthy outlet for me of where that needs to go you know where that energy needs to go so yeah that’s that’s what I’m doing did that answer well enough I don’t feel like I just rambled about my problems for five minutes but I appreciate you sharing that and I’ve had a couple of comeback seasons in my time and I would say I’m in a comeback season right now also and the way that I Define it is not necessarily like gloom and doom everywhere it’s I feel very connected to my purpose right now I’m not you know financially where I was two years ago or like I can’t find an investor to get this concept off the ground like so it’s always layers to to life and so then there’s layers of like where are you winning and and where are you not and one of the ways that I’m trying to navigate my comeback season is to have moments of gratitude for the layers that that are firing and and doing this podcast is kind of one of those ways just to to to recognize that I have amazing people in my network and to catch up with people and to have vulnerable conversations with people and to give it all away you know for free and to like pay it forward in that regard so in that way it’s uh that’s a shining moment and then there’s just other things that are that are dark and it’s I think it’s just always in some in some way like every day has its own like here was the high here was the low and it ends up being this like soup that comes together the last few years have felt on a whole like more of a low than they have been a high and so I would say I’m like in a comeback season but then I’m also like there’s certain things that are clicking and so we’ll all come together and and click on your side too where okay the geography is clicking like that’s great The Woodworking clicking you know and you just start to build from like what is good what is working right now and sometimes it’s like the smallest things but then you just start to stack the winds together yeah absolutely I think that everybody disappeared and got jumbled up when Co hit so we’re all coming still it’s only four years you know yeah if you look at like the trajectory of any business like that’s that’s just like one turn of the clock really like oh okay now you’re starting to see what things are I was gonna I was gonna go to a different I was gonna pivot to a different topic but is it because we’re talking about the your comeback season so you got uncomfortable we had to change topics no I’m I’m unfortunately very comfortable in my own comeback Seasons I feel very at home in these reputation era moments where I don’t trust anyone and I just go and build and like head down and and go and you know two years later emerge and things are back on the top of the world yeah look there’s all different ways of doing it again I think I think that judging the process or comparing the process is is a crazy thing to do I think it it’s very destructive you know we’re all doing there’s very few people on Earth that are not trying to do their best in any moment you know and we can Pawn that off as laziness or bad habits we could Pawn that off as you know hyperactive attention into certain areas we can Pond that off into all sorts of different labels it doesn’t really matter what matters is like there’s been almost I can’t think of a day in my life where I intentionally didn’t do my best and so if the best doesn’t lead to a same result like that’s okay it’s it’s still what you had to give I think that’s the important part I love tying it back to to the effort and I love that you’re trying to bring that to life with your parenting too so here ironically enough I have a a coach dcup from a kids soccer team that I coached a couple years ago and these three rules started there and have kind of just brought themselves to our family and the three rules are rule number one is be a good human rule number two is effort and rule number three is teamwork when the kids of course ask well what about fun we go if you do those three things you’ll have fun they go what about winning well if you do those three things you’ll win a lot too and then about halfway through the season we we clue them in that it’s not just for soccer it’s for everything if you’re a good person first and you put in effort and you rely on your team and you’re a good teammate to whoever your family your parents your classmates your whatever your business it’s hard to lose at life and I think that that is something that is rather than rather than measuring results back to the school conversation rather than measuring results if we focus on measuring that connection and that intentional output and the effort we put behind it I think we’d all view the world a little bit differently I love that you heard it here first from coach D is there anything that we have not talked about that you want to leave in the world besides your three uh rules from coach I mean probably you could pick a topic I’ll go for days but I don’t know did we answer all the questions on the sheet did we do that already we did we did my handwritten my my my sheet sheet I want to know what’s next for you I am very happy in my marketing agency Sizzle Society working with Brands working with franchises working in Fitness it’s as if I spent a bit of time girl bossing very close to the Sun got burned and now I’m coming back to just a core competency of this is what I do best this is my super P power place and um reset like be there live there for a bit and and then Branch back out so that said I’m staying open I’m staying Nimble and as always Scrappy and I think the right things are going to emerge from that sounds good I like it um I do have an answer for you you said like there’s anything else that I could leave I think there’s three three things in life that I’ve learned over the past number of years that are like true life hacks for anybody and I don’t know why these aren’t given full advertising campaigns like during the Super Bowl but they should and it’s gratitude forgiv and contentment and and I think they all work together if when you start forgiving yourself for all the the labels and all the wrongs and all the things and forgive others around you recognizing they’re just other human beings doing their best and you add that to a little bit of gratitude for what’s right in front of you what you can appreciate daily you find contentment and and I used to have such a negative connotation with contentment like aggressively was against it like oh you’re just not living up to your potential you’re not trying hard enough you’re not and over time I’ve realized it just means that you’re comfortable where you are and the ability to sit anywhere and just be comfortable and not feel the need to keep pushing or stress about what was or all those things it’s just man that’s that’s a life hack for sure so yeah that’s probably the last piece I I’d want to put on the table I love it and I have so much gratitude to you for working through this podcast experience with me and um this is me trying I just appreciate you as a collaborator over time and I appreciate you as a friend over time and um thank you so much for joining me today on this episode of the society B thank you for having me it’s been a pleasure I love the fact that we’re still connected after you slid in my DMs forever ago we hope you enjoyed this episode of the society pod